“A stranger is a friend you haven’t met yet” (A Conversation between MyTaiwanTour and Chu Ping)

本文轉載自Voices from Taiwan by My Taiwan Tour, on 11/27/2017


“Chu Ping is not your typical interview subject. Our conversation (which at times crossed the line from Ted Talk to Tony Robbins seminar) ranged from tourism to art, capitalism to futurism, poetry to human rights. Chu Ping (or simply Ping to friends, and since Ping regards friendship as a most cherished value that’s how I’ll be referring to him here on in) is a modern-day Renaissance man, with a field of interest as difficult to summarize as that of revered American theorist, author and and designer Buckminster Fuller.”

photo credit to Red Room Taipei

Among Ping’s current pursuits are Forward Taiwan, an organization dedicated to strengthening Taiwan’s global economic position through efforts to improve national immigration policies and Happier Lab, a social innovation group promoting co-creation in a variety of fields. And this merely scratches the surface of Ping’s activities. He’s also the co-founder of Taipei’s Red Room, an ever-expanding community gathering/performance space. And this barely scratches the surface.

I met up with Ping for an interview at Happier Lab headquarters. I’d barely sat down before Ping began interviewing me.

“Are you doing what you love in life?” He asked, his trademark gravelly voice adding gravitas to the question.

It was a good question, though unexpected.

“Well, I love promoting tourism in Taiwan,” I answered.

Ping laughed. “You don’t need to promote tourism in Taiwan. Just let people know how happy you are here. The important thing is to promote Taiwanese values.”

Promoting Taiwanese values are at the core of everything Ping does, and the subject would come up throughout our 90-minute conversation.

“Fair enough,” I replied. “But seeing as I work for a travel company, which specific Taiwanese value should I be promoting?”

Ren qing wei,” he answered.

Like many multi-layered concepts, ren qing wei defies simple translation. But the conversation was already getting into deep territory, so I asked Ping to translate it nonetheless.

“It’s hard to translate. Like xiao long bao. Steamed dumplings, right? But so much flavor gets lost with that translation. I guess you could translate it as hospitality, though really that word doesn’t do it justice.
Ren qing wei is so more than that. Trust, empathy.”

As Ping fished for words to do the term justice, I snuck a peek at Google translate, which rendered the phrase as “Human Touch”.

“It’s a good start, but it is more than that. Honestly, it’s something you need to experience to understand. From your point of view as a travel company, you should promote Taiwan as an ideal society, a place where people not only trust each other but also treat visitors like family members. We must live this concept, for example…”

At this Ping looked up and addressed my colleague April, who was behind the camera.

“As a Taiwanese, what have you done today to specifically promote the concept of ren qing wei?”

April shrugged. She’d expected her part in the assignment to remain mostly technical.

“For example…?” She asked.

“You see a foreigner who looks lost. Do you reach out and try to help them? Do you stop and say what can I do for you, where you want to go. It’s on my way, I’ll take you there.”

Ping was referring to a phenomenon well known to any long-term expat in Taiwan who’s ever spent more than 30 seconds looking at an MRT station wall map. It’s an old chestnut, but as Taipei has become more internationalized, I’d noticed it happening less.

Ping wasn’t deterred in the least when I mentioned this.

“Maybe we should do a social experiment, film a few foreigners standing by subway maps, put the result on the internet. That would be some good promotion. Anyway, I don’t want people to be indoctrinated, even by this article. Taiwan is the best-kept secret in Asia. Come here with an open mind, Visit for a while. Maybe you’ll stay for the rest of your life.”

Which proved a good segue into another of Ping’s passion projects. Because if bringing people to Taiwan is our passion as a travel company, keeping them here is Ping’s, and he was eager to talk about the great strides recently made to that effect in the Taiwan legislature, partially as a result of the work of another project he’d long spearheaded, Forward Taiwan, whose years of lobbying was on the verge of bearing fruit in the form of actual legislation.

“I’m very happy to share with everyone the fact that Taiwan has just passed a new law. On the surface, it’s set up to recruit talented people to Taiwan, but our hope is that in addition to doing that it’ll help encourage people who are already in Taiwan to stay by providing a clear roadmap for how immigrants can make their lives in Taiwan, not just for the short term but for the long term.”

Ping was referring to issues faced by many expatriates who’ve chosen to settle in Taiwan. While the majority of foreign-born Taiwan residents enjoy some of the same social benefits as Taiwan born citizens, there are still gaping holes in the social safety net, specifically in so far as residency benefits for children and inclusion in retirement programs and pension schemes. He expressed hope that the new laws will close some of these gaps.

“Look, the government legislators understand that the only way we can attract new talent is through the referrals of people who already live here. The new laws now being worked out are going to do a lot to keep the people who are in Taiwan already to stay here. It’ll offer a clear roadmap for how immigrants can make their lives in Taiwan.”

Changing the way that Taiwan thinks about the concept of Talent – at least insofar as immigration policy is concerned – is another of Forward Taiwan’s purposes.

photo credit to Forward Taiwan

“Right now there are only two ways to describe talent in Taiwan. One is salary, and the other is college degree, which is really an outdated way of thinking. What about artists? What about people without a degree from a so-called top 500 university? There are so many people who have so much of what Taiwan is looking for insofar as creativity and innovation, cross culture and diversity that it makes no sense to restrict the talent pool like this. So we’re trying to change the laws, trying to open things up to allow for a more inclusive visa system for artists, social organizers, long-term caretakers for the elderly. Things are changing, of course. We need to attract more talent to Taiwan.”

As we continued speaking, it became clear to me that Ping’s interest in attracting foreign talent to Taiwan was only partly based on Taiwan’s business interest. There was also a streak of patriotism, a desire to show off the achievements of his nation far and wide.

“Taiwan is a civilized society, a society that offers health care to all its citizens. This is part of ren qing wei, our social responsibility. People take care of each other here, and that is a big part of why Taiwanese society is generally happy. Now in America, people are held hostage by their jobs. If they leave, they lose their healthcare. This is thankfully not the case in Taiwan. We regard healthcare as a human right, and we want everyone in the world to know this. So yes, we want people to come to Taiwan as tourists, but to stay, to make Taiwan a second home.”

“What about the language issue?” I asked. “A lot of foreigners find learning Chinese difficult.”

Ping shrugged it off.

“The best way to learn Chinese is to be there, hang out in a Chinese speaking environment,” he said. “Anyway, being bilingual is a way to expand your brain. In any event, many people in Taiwan have good English proficiency.”

There was, of course, some truth to this. People who travel around Taiwan often come away with similar tales of taxi drivers, small-town train depot ticket sellers, and random strangers throughout the island able to speak English ranging from passable to surprisingly fluent. But according to Ping, Taiwan could be doing better on this front. Much better.

Enter, the Moonshot Program.

“The name is based on JFK’s famous proclamation about landing America on the moon inside of ten years,” Ping explained. “Everyone thought it was a pipe dream, but it happened. Well, our dream is to make Taiwan a bilingual country, with English as one of our official languages 33 years from now, by the year 2050.”

I told Ping that this seemed impossible.

“It is not impossible!” He shot back. “Difficult, yes, but not impossible. We need 10,000 English teachers to come here and be spread out through the country, not just in the city’s but in the country.”

As to why Taiwan should adopt English as a second language, Ping points to the gap in Taiwan between ‘those who can command English and those who cannot’.

photo credit to Red Room Taipei

“People who aren’t bilingual in Taiwan will always be behind the curve. Knowledge is power, and those who can’t command English are more prone to being sycophantic, yet at the same time, they’ll be more xenophobic. I don’t want to see that. The time for protecting Taiwan from outside influences is over; the younger generation are the ones that need to make this happen as the older generation, the more conservative fundamentalist generation, the myopic people, they’re dying out. It’s up to the younger generation. By promoting a bilingual Taiwan, we are focusing on the strength of Taiwan, our openness, and flexibility.”

Promoting Taiwan, and increasing the open society access of Taiwan, is at the core of much of what Ping puts his energy into, from Forward Taiwan and Red Room to more esoteric and far-reaching endeavors like the Moonshot Program. But facilitating change within Taiwanese society is another part of what drives Ping, and in this aspect, there is also something of the gentle revolutionary in him. Not in the Che Guevara or Chairman Mao model, but in the way of Buckminster Fuller, who Ping quotes to describe his own philosophy of social change.

“As Buckminster Fuller said, ‘You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete.’ Red Room is this model, a platform from which artists to launch their passions. Forward Taiwan is another platform from which people in Taiwan can effect meaningful change. We’re not about demonstrating in the streets, leave that to other people. We’re creating a platform for the silent majority.

Our conversation had been going on for nearly 90 minutes, and I’d not yet gotten to half of my prepared questions. With time growing short, I decided to skip down to the final item my list. It wasn’t a question so much as a quote, and though it was too broad to associate with any one person since I’d heard it first researching Ping’s writing I thought I’d end by asking him about it.

“You’re fond of saying to accomplish the extraordinary you must interact with extraordinary people. From a travel standpoint, how does one make this kind of serendipity happen?”

Ping thought about it for a moment.

“In my experience, the most extraordinary people I’ve met have been those strangers with whom I’ve just clicked. 20, 30 years later, I still remember these chance encounters. There’s no real formula for this outside of going outside and making things happen. You don’t create extraordinary experiences by sitting at home.”

“And you don’t turn strangers into friends by sitting at home either,” I added.

Ping laughed.

“Not usually. But travel is a great way to do that. Or just come to the Red Room.”

{新書專訪} 就在明天! 4/23(三)14:15-14:55 中廣流行網FM 103.3



主持人:夏韻芬 小姐


播出頻道:中廣流行網 (FM 103.3)

訪問時間:4/23(三) 14:15-14:55( Live播出)




1. 新書介紹



Be the Change 走下跑步機的人生







台東都蘭:落花鉎 背包客民宿_朱平V.S.小Jay 對談


「落花鉎 背包客民宿」為漣漪人基金會第一個資助的實驗,希望能協助準備好的創業人,推廣台東豐富的自然及文化資源,發揮無限的可能。下面是我(以下簡稱朱先生)與落花鉎 背包客民宿的負責人丁左昊先生(以下簡稱小Jay)暢談關於成立落花鉎背包客民宿的想法與創業歷程:



小Jay:在整理完落花鉎民宿的裝修後,我第一個感覺是「空間會說話」。我希望來到落花鉎的人可以去感受空間所帶來的語言,而不是只有我的介紹。當他自己去發掘探索空間的時候,會十分驚奇的說,「咦? 怎麼這樣也可以?!那樣也可以?!」其實很多客人會去探險,先是發現「開關」很多,接著驚訝著每一盞燈的創意。另外,我喜歡分享的感覺,倒不是物質上的分享,而是生活與觀念上的。我覺得會願意當背包客,且來到都蘭與其他人共處,都有一個重要的關鍵-分享,分享有關生命的、旅遊的,或是其他任何一切,悲傷也好、快樂也好,在不同的碰撞後產生不一樣的火花,這是我希望客人可以來這邊做的第二件事;甚至,如果他是時常來都蘭,探索過許多地方的背包客,他也可以帶著新來的朋友去玩。來到落花鉎的人可以自己踏出探索那一步,去享受都蘭非常自在、隨性的環境,不需刻意做些什麼,也不必被我這個民宿老闆照顧的很好,他可以很自然的跟都蘭的環境融合在一起,似乎像一條命運的絲線,忽然間,就連在一起了,我覺得是蠻奇妙的感覺。










小Jay:(笑) 對阿! 一開始沒有,唯一的朋友就是我住過所認識的民宿老闆,其他資訊都是來居住後,邊生活才邊認識



小Jay:老實說,「打工換宿」也是來都蘭才學。剛開始,曾參考國外所謂的Working Holiday,也思索用不同的角度切入,但其實早在20年前就開始有「打工換宿」的名詞,最早源自一些南亞觀光島嶼,例如:Club Med;而這近20年,國外(歐洲或澳洲)也開始快速發展所謂的打工渡假,深入了解後,發現每個人的體驗及種種的酸甜苦樂都非常豐富。我將它定義為一種深度旅遊,因為它不同於一般的觀光,你必須放下你的國家及背景,真實地去體驗與融合當地生活,與他們一起工作、生活,了解他們的語言;觀光旅遊偏向是花錢去看我們想看的,但打工旅遊不一定只有你想看的,還需要自己做、自己去體驗。我覺得很多台灣的孩子在聽到Working Holiday時,第一個都想到Holiday,比較少想到Working;它其實是一種Barter(以等價物或勞務作為交換)的方式,不只是用金錢,甚至可以採取用時數、工作、服務來替代。我最近也有一個想法,就是想提供更多元的交換方式,譬如,我們今年除了提供一般服務性質工作外,也請有特殊專長(彩繪)的小幫手來做彩繪;另外,也請男生來幫忙做一些粗活,像是木工。這過程其實蠻好玩的,相信對他們來說,也是有血有淚的回憶。我希望在未來,也有會音樂的人來教我音樂,或者會語言的人來教我語言,這些都可以去多元嘗試,不是只有一般服務性質的工作。所以,我想跟年輕人分享的是,打工換宿需要付出,但卻能真實地體驗那些付出。














家庭作業 Assignment

  1. 請上Fasebook查詢「落花鉎民宿」,並且留言鼓勵小Jay,讓小Jay知道您在未來若有空,一定會去落花鉎做短期的住宿,讓自已有機會認識小Jay、認識自己!
  2. 請馬上拿出手機,撥電話給您一位好朋友,對他說「Thank you for being in my life!」(在我的生命中有你是一件美好的事!
  3. 在過年期間,請先去〔好樣思維〕VVG Thinking (華山1914.紅磚六合院?W32棟?杭州北路,北平東路口,洽詢電話:02-23225573,部落格:http://vvgvvg.blogspot.tw/)用行動支持好樣,Grace Wang讓我們清楚知道台灣生活美學的另一種可能。十多年前第一次在好樣吃Brunch時就一直喜歡好樣,也看到Grace不斷堅持及一再的突破。最難能可貴的是好樣帶動了一群年輕朋友將餐飲跟生活美感合一,讓這些年輕人找到自己的方向及興趣。請讀我專欄的朋友一定要用消費去支持好樣思維(不要僅是逛逛),讓Grace可以感受得到。這不是能不能負擔得起的問題,而是在於您如何選擇您優先考慮的事。好樣沒有用本土、國產、民粹等限制性思維嘩眾取寵,而是跟世界發聲,讓真正用心的人在台灣能成功,分享好樣對台灣生活美學的新定義。We vote with what we buy!
  4. 請上網欣賞這段影片「以色列和伊朗:一個愛情故事?」http://www.ted.com/talks/israel_and_iran_a_love_story.html一個小小的動作可以造成很大的改變,甚至超乎原本的想像,而我們每個人都可以成為自己的大使,傳遞訊息,並且期待最好的結果。如果我們不勇敢做些改變,勇敢嘗試與付出,怎麼期待與人產生不同的連結與共鳴?




2012年11月/Style Master雜誌 第15期


Text:Diana Yun/Photos:韓承燁



1995年7月開始成立肯夢Aveda,並代理Aveda產品後目前在台居住已有20年,對台灣近年因全球話所產生的衝擊感受也很深,「現在的年輕人是比較辛苦的,因為選擇太多了。」由於現代資訊之龐雜和變遷之快速, 太多的想法產生太多的選擇,因此要從中去樹立屬於自己的核心價值相對是困難的,「我們這一代是幸運的,因為選擇很少,也只能往這條路專心去做。」他認為現在年輕人總是想做自己所愛,卻不懂的認真從手邊的事物學習,進而得到成就感,最後只能在原點對那假設出的夢想感到遙不可及。

同時他也提醒台灣目前是已開發國家的事實,我們不再需要因原始需求去追求高成長,如此反而犧牲了品質與創意,對文化成長是沒有幫助的。「我們已進入了微利時代,真正重要的不在於要追求什麼,而在於如何和你所放棄的和平共處。每個人都該有屬於自己的生命價值觀,做個最好的自己吧!」這些觀念均來自朱平老師近年來極力推廣的「生意人 悅日人 漣漪人」。他認為,一個人要先能夠自給自足,不依賴他人,並且能夠用心的過每一天,進而的讓自己的正面信念與能量影響周遭的人,產生漣漪效應,有點像儒家的己立立人,己達達人的觀念。無論是何種想法與信念,只要能夠讓社會具有正面向上的力量,就值得讓人投入與堅持,我是這麼想的,你呢?


朱平老師的著作「生意人 悅日人 漣漪人」,裡頭集結了在ppaper business(前身為ICCB)發表的文章,每個文章都對生活、社會、人生提出了獨到的看法與省思,並提供作業與讀者互動,期望能夠影響到一些具有同樣體認的人,他認為,即便是能夠提供給少數的人正確的觀念,就是一件好事。


New food culture in Taiwan 新飲食文化


Ming and I did the interview with 陳鴻 yesterday. He is not only gracious but also having a passion to integrate food to the way we live our life. Good food starts from home too.

We shared our vision on Nonzero and food culture in Taiwan. I think one dead end of Taiwan food culture is that we emphasize too much on taste, not enough on bigger issue like the role of food in our lifestyle, personal value and social issue, such as depletion of fish stock in the ocean, hygiene and yes, paying tax. No one ever talks about restaurant being a responsible corporate citizen, and that they need to pay tax, requiring their team to eat proper sit down dinner like the restaurant guests, most importantly, demanding their team to change, both lifestyle and creativity.

How to mix timeless dishes with innovative dishes is the benchmark of how great a restaurant is. No young man would like to work at a restaurant that stays the same using a secret recipe passed down from generations before. It may be a good business model, however, it is a bad way to evolve and renew.

There are so many things we could talk about during the interview. Unfortunately, we have limited time. I have to give credit to 陳鴻 for his professionalism and the vision to expand Taiwan’s uniqueness through out Asia Pacific, China and the world.

We have so many things to offer to the world, one thing I hope we can offer is not just which restaurant is the best to eat, but, which restaurant is having a vision to redefine restaurant from tasty food to a lifestyle.

Thank you, 陳鴻 , for finding Nonzero’s deeper mission.


Two episodes that surprised me a lot:

1. 陳鴻 secretly arrange a special guest during the interview. Sophie Huang, the most elegant and understated fashion designer in Taiwan, and a hero of mine, to call in and shared her love of Nonzero restaurant. Sophie is one of the early adopters to Nonzero. She sometimes came alone with a book in hand, enjoying a quiet lunch alone. This is the most beautiful scene when you see people who are so comfortable and at ease when they eat alone at Nonzero with an absorbing moment while reading a book. Thank you, Sophie Huang.

2. Ming’s sister called right after the interview from Malaysia and told her that three of us did an fantastic job. Wow, this is the power of instant internet radio programing. Ming has forwardedhttp://hichannel.hinet.net/player/radio/index.jsp?radio_id=232
UFO internet radio address to her sister before we started interview. Now, we can see the power of internet radio. People living in Malaysia and Taiwan could listen to UFO simultaneously.

Anyone interested in developing a low cost internet radio business. I know Monocle has done a great job to explore this business model. Please check out?http://www.monocle.com?to see how they built a brand and an evolving/progressive business through this innovated media channel. Taiwan has been a laggard for so long due to the laziness and internal focused of our media giant.

Be the change, any taker?




Artist meets urban farmer

I still remember the day Ming and I interviewed Mr. Lin Chuan Chu (林銓居). A hot day. Clear blue sky with slow dancing clouds.

The interview took place in Mr Lin’s studio in Jinshan, about 10 minutes drive from his farm. As we talked, I realised that Mr. Lin is a typical renaissance man. He has traveled extensively and extremely well read, from Chinese classics to western philosophy. His essays are a joy to read, documenting his travel experience through keen observation and eloquent verses.

I always admire people who accept the trade off so they could follow their heart. Mr. Lin still thinks of himself as a full time artist. Farming is an opportunity for him to stay humble and learn the beauty of nature. Now, he has the earth as his canvas.

Let’s wait for his next master piece.

You can find out more about Lin Chuan Chu 林銓居 from this link. http://www.earth-holder.com.tw/about_1.htm

我的名字叫 Cemedas, 徐璐 (下)


《原民.原鄉.原動力4之4》我的名字叫Cemedas (中時電子報2011/09/22 )


90年代中期,一些來自部落的原住民歌聲,開始在台北的小咖啡館、小音樂館出現。從雲力思、飛魚雲豹音樂工團、風潮音樂、檳榔兄弟、角頭音樂、野火樂集、大大樹,一張又一張充滿生命力的專輯也陸續出版。而我心中的那條線也繼續跟著胡德夫,跟著這些歌聲,未曾間斷。原住民音樂人的歌聲被聽見了、被注意了。原住民的正名在 1995年也成立了,但原住民朋友在海山煤礦之後,在都市叢林裡的遭遇,反而沉寂了。現在已是瑪家鄉佳義村頭目的林廣財在他最近出版並得到金曲獎的「百年排灣,風華再現」的音樂專輯及文字小冊中,以他親身在城市做各種苦力勞工的經歷,寫出了原住民在城市裡,勞力被剝削、心靈上流離失所的「流浪者之歌」。他說:1970到80,流浪到台北的原住民在鷹架上、礦坑裡和勞力市場中拼掉了青春。1995年,雖然原住民被正名了,但從1990年代開始至今,反而是原住民 最難挨的年代,1990年代中期,勞動市場轉向了外勞,被一腳踢開的原住民,不得不被迫重回部落。但歷經了1980年代經濟、文化全面解體的部落,此時要容納從都市回流的群體。貧薄的保留地在沒有風雨襲擊時也只能給予部落最低限度的生活。只是,這樣凋敝的部落,這批身心俱疲的返鄉者,該如何整理二十餘年來的流離經驗,如何尋找、重振屬於原住民自己的價值和尊嚴?返鄉的原住民,在生存上和心 靈上都再度面臨了另一種困頓。

2000年後,台北的小酒館裡,原住民音樂人中最渾厚又滄桑的聲音,是來自巴奈.庫穗。在台北的巴奈,唱著原住民最深層的悲傷,種種的不公平。她說「許多人都以為阿美族歌謠大部份是快樂的,甚至有人覺得原住民的歌是樂觀、開朗的。但有多少人知道,原住民在快樂唱歌之外,如何面對現實生活的無奈與悲淒」,在「怎麼會這樣」的歌中,她憤怒地唱著「不公平、不公平、不公平,因為我是原住民 ,就不能被祝福的愛情,原住民、原住民……」,我為她歌聲中盡是滄桑與憤怒的吶喊,停佇下來,一路跟著她,在台北、到台東……。隨著她心情起伏,和她做著時而親近,時而也保持一點距離的好朋友。


巴奈的愛人那布,一個全身流著布農族血液的驃悍男子,他曾陪自己的族人,包括60幾歲的老人家,走了六天六夜,徒步走回80年前,他的父母及族人共2,000多人,從海拔1020公尺上,被迫遷出的家鄉內本鹿。那天,那布協助巴奈分發豬肉,輪到我時,他丟了塊石頭到屋頂上,發出了一個小小的不滿的聲音,表達了他既願意與我分享,卻又對我們這些城市人還是不夠了解他們的一種生氣。那布的那塊石 頭,沉在我心裡,有時是一種困惑,有時是一個提醒。我想起那個年輕人說的「如果我們心中有裂痕,那是因為我們受傷太深了」。那裂痕有多深,憤怒就有多深,就會有愈來愈多的石頭,被丟到屋頂上,丟到路邊上,丟到大馬路上。不意外地,由於一件又一件的大型土地開發案正在以十足的馬力進行,巴奈和那布,以及許許多多部落的老人,年輕人都走上了街頭,走到凱達格蘭大道……,以最憤怒的聲音吶喊!


回到那布的那顆石頭,和巴奈及許許多多部落族人的憤怒。1850年,美國西部印第安的大酋長西雅圖,他的原名是Seathl.西雅瑟,因為他的智慧與偉大,美西的城市西雅圖即是以他為名。當時,美國華盛頓州準州長希望買下他們杜彎密希族200萬英畝的土地,並「保證 」會劃塊「保留區」,讓他們可以平靜地過日子。這位偉大的酋長手指著天空,講了一段如詩如歌、發人身省的演說。在他的演說中,他對白人如此大肆地掠奪土地表達了極大的不解。他訴說著人與土地的連結,紅人對山川萬物的情感,還有對自己族人凋零的無奈。





今年4月,巴奈曾發表了一篇「土地宣言」,溫和的訴說人與土地 的關係:



How to change the world by David Dupouy

David is a new friend who recently attended The Red Room for the first time. He spoke about “How to change the world”.

David has been CEO and founder of 3 software companies in Silicon Valley, having started his first one at age 20. He also created and patented the Sensiva handwriting- recognition technology, embedded in mobile devices and used by millions of people every day. Passionate about business, technology, design, and education, he is an advisor to companies and government organizations around the world. You can read more about David here.